Whistleblowers: You’re Worth Protecting

//Being a whistleblower has numerous challenges.  How do you prepare for the task of bringing difficult things to light in a way that gives the best opportunity for a positive outcome?  Andrea and Rosanne discuss positional power, factors to be considered for those hoping to influence healthy accountability, and ways to reduce risks. 

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Transcript

Hey there!  It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.  Today, I have with me Rosanne Moore.  And we’re going to discuss the conversation that I had with Dr. Diane Langberg last week about her book, Redeeming Power.

As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago when Rosanne and I talked, you might wonder why we’re talking about abuse and abuse of power on the show, because a lot of times we’re talking about organizations, and organizational development, and people development, and things like this.  But the reason why we’re talking about that is because we want to see healthy influence thrive.  We want our clients to know the ability and have the ability to leverage healthy influence in order to get people on board, and get buy-in, and solve problems, and move forward.

But in order to know what healthy influence is, we have to also take a really hard look at what unhealthy influence looks like.  And so, that conversation that I had with Dr. Diane Langberg last week was really helpful to consider what kinds of power we actually hold because we don’t always realize that we are in a position of power.  I think a lot of the problems that come up – or maybe some, maybe I’m overestimating how many – but I do think that there are some people who speak and act in a way that is powerful over somebody else without recognizing that they hold power over them, that there’s an unhealthy power dynamic at play.

You know, Rosanne, I was thinking about this.  I watched “The Morning Show”; it was on Apple TV.  It’s got Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Aniston, and Steve Carell’s. And Steve Carell’s character, you’ll find out right away that he has taken advantage of women who work under him at The Morning Show, which is a morning show like The Today Show or the Good Morning America.

And one of the things that he actually says and his stake in the ground that he kind of keeps hammering on throughout the show is that “These women are empowered.  They can say that they don’t want to do something.  They made this decision.”  But yet, they didn’t ever feel like they really had a voice.  They felt maybe frozen when they’re in the midst of his advances.  And so, that power dynamic is so important to understand because people don’t always realize that they are in a position of power and that the other person isn’t.

Rosanne, what are your thoughts as I just introduce today’s episode?

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah, that’s why clergy abuse or a therapist with a client – you know, there are laws against those things – because positional power is a real dynamic.  And when somebody purports to speak for God into somebody else’s life, like in a clergy situation, or when in a therapy situation where you’re going to somebody for help and so, they’re the kind of voice of authority about what health is, and they may be totally screwed up, but you don’t know that.  You know, a doctor – the same thing, a medical professional – there are ethical guidelines that are intended to protect patients.  Yeah, there has to be an awareness of  positional power.  Well, Dr. Langberg said coercion means you can’t say “no”; you know, you don’t have the opportunity.  You cannot say “no” without being punished.

Andrea:  There you go.

Rosanne Moore:  So, could those women have said “no”? Possibly.  I mean, depending on the circumstances were, “freeze” is the most common response to sexual aggression.  So, there’s a physiological reality of not being able to say “no” that people often don’t understand.

Andrea:  And that is actually something that I could relate to when I was talking with Diane.  And I shared just my experience of childbirth and how I had gotten to that place where my voice was frozen so much that I couldn’t actually tell the doctor that nobody is giving me pain medicine while, you know, he was stitching me up.  So, he was stitching me up; I had not had any pain medicine.  I couldn’t say it; I just sat there and took it.

So, I get that, you don’t always have the voice.  No matter how strong you are, how empowered you are in other circumstances, when you have been taken advantage of or when you’ve experienced trauma of some kind like this.  I mean, you can’t just say it.  And so, we all have to see this for ourselves.

So, Diane mentioned other kinds of power that I think we should just touch on real quick, Rosanne.  And one of them, in particular, that I thought was interesting was the power – like the verbal power – to be able to debate somebody and crush them in a debate, whether that be verbal or knowledge, you know, both of those two things.  I was like, “Oh, yes, this is so true.”

I’ve seen this in myself, where I can overpower somebody in a debate, in a conversation, and there were times when I’d feel really good about it afterwards, because I thought “Yeah, they just came over to my side.”  But, in fact, they probably hadn’t.  They probably just were like: “I give up.  I’m not gonna bother with this person.  I’m out.”  And I had overpowered them with verbal power and knowledge power, which isn’t fair.  And these are things I think we need to be aware of.

Rosanne Moore:  And I think the other thing that she said in conjunction with that, that was really important, is not only are we often not aware of our own power, but we’re more aware of our sense of powerlessness.  And so, then we seek to empower ourselves.

Andrea:  Yeah!

Rosanne Moore:  And so, to relate to what you’re saying, often I’ll be in a situation where I feel powerless.  And so, then I will use words and I will use passion to regain my sense of power by overpowering somebody else in a conversation.  And, yeah, the thing that I’ve had to be aware of, I think there was a situation where you called me out on that, like, I don’t know, five or six years ago, and that probably just kind of reinforced to me that that was something I needed to be more aware of.

Even if I thought I was holding back, if the other person was a person who was not very verbally adept, that I may not be, like, really, passionate in a moment.  But I needed to give space for them to respond, maybe in writing, rather than in an actual verbal encounter, so that they didn’t feel overwhelmed by me.

Andrea:  We can sting each other.  

Rosanne Moore: So easily.

Andrea: Yeah, I think about this with the Deep Impact method too.  And when we’re working with a client and when I’m talking about this with a group, I’m like: “How many of you have ever experienced feedback as a weapon where somebody has used feedback to hurt you?”  And everybody sits there and goes: “Yep.”  And we’ve done it too; we’ve probably also done it.

Rosanne Moore:  And we can withhold as a weapon, too.  That’s the other thing, you know.  That was the other thought that I had, is people who feel powerless often use withholding, so it becomes a passive aggressive or a covert aggression thing.  So, kind of like what we talked about with Helena when she was the guest.  So, it can go either way where, in our sense of weakness, not engage openly but undermine behind the scenes and hold power that way.

I can remember Dr. Larry Crabb talking about his realization that just the expression in his eyes, whether he made eye contact and how he made eye contact, could be a use of power, either of affirmation or withholding.  And I remember hearing another man talk about how he could punish his wife by simply avoiding her gaze, like when she would try to engage him and he would just be distant, and he could punish her if he was irritated by her by doing that.

So, yeah, knowing the power that we hold and also recognizing in ourselves the way that we punish people when we’re upset with them.  We may not think of it as punishing so much as protecting ourselves in the moment, but if we’re really honest, it can go beyond protection.  There’s a place for that if someone’s unsafe or if things need to calm down.  But if that’s a prolonged thing, where you’re getting back at someone because you’re upset with them, that’s a whole other deal.

Andrea:  Hmm.  So, Rosanne, you have listened to the conversation that I had with Diane.  What are some of the things that really stood out to you about that conversation?

Rosanne Moore:  Well, it’s just so true that we want to rush through pain – our own, other people’s – that we want to believe evil, or loss is less than it is, you know.  We define ourselves as being strong as somehow being unaffected by what should affect us.

Andrea:  Can you just say that again?

Rosanne Moore:  We have this false definition of strength as being unaffected by things that do and should affect us.  We should be affected by evil.  We should be affected by loss.  When someone that you love dies, if you love them, it’s going to affect you.  That’s a byproduct of loving.  I have a friend right now who, just a few months ago, lost her son very unexpectedly.  And she’s getting all this pressure to just kind of go back to life.

We have a mutual friend, Kim Berg, who wrote a beautiful book called Schema of a Soul about her experience with losing her son in a tragic car accident and how people expected at six weeks that she was supposed to just go back to life as normal.  And that they saw it as a sign of weakness that at the point, when the numbness was just starting to wear off and the pain was really beginning to hit, that she wasn’t fine.  Well, that’s not even real, you know.

But we’re so uncomfortable with the idea of pain, and we’re so afraid of our own pain and other people’s that I think we try – well, Dr. Langberg was talking about that we try to push people into behaving as if they’re fine, and instead we make them shut down.  So, she talked about “talking, tears, and time” being necessary elements of healing.

Andrea:  So, Rosanne, you’ve worked with a lot of women who have experienced trauma.  How does “talking, tears, and time,” how have you seen that actually play out?

Rosanne Moore:  Actually, in the midst of seeing more and more, a lot of the things that are normal trauma triggers to other people can be seen as manipulation or people making bad decisions.  So, then it’s kind of “Well, of course, they deserve to have such and such happen because they’re making bad decisions.”  And they are to a certain degree making bad decisions, but there’s a failure to recognize the impact of what they’ve been through and that they’re in survival mode.

And Dr. Langberg talks about the very things that they’re doing that look counterproductive are the normal reaction to being overwhelmed by something that was horrific.  That is too much for a human being to bear because it’s not what we were made for.

Andrea:  There’s so much that goes on beneath the surface, and we have to recognize that.  Instead of judging people for the immediate top thing that’s happening, oh, there’s so much more, so much more that can be going on.

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah, and that’s one of the things, I guess, in a situation I’ve been working with lately.  I’ve been really asking the question – because if a decision will be made, something will happen – and my question immediately is: “Was there a trigger?  What’s actually happening here?”  Instead of assuming this was a lack of consideration or assuming that the other person is filtering the same information that I am.

I mean, I think part of it too, I have a child who’s on the autism spectrum, and one of the things that I learned very early on was, he sees the world differently.  Like, the way that he processes the world is just different.  And so, I learned when he did something that I’m thinking: “What on earth were you thinking?!” to say “Hey, what were you thinking when you did this?”  And he always has a logical explanation for what he’s doing.  Now he’s leaving out pieces of information that a more neurotypical person would have given precedence to, but he has a reason for it.  He’s not just being difficult.  And that was something that I had to learn as a mother.

And so it’s something, even now, I still have to find a balance between letting him be who he is, and not constantly feeling like I have to correct him and try to change him to be like me.  And I think that’s something we have to realize too.  And that’s part of why the Deep Impact Method is really good, of being able to hear where the other person is coming from. 

I have a brother and a sister-in-law who have adopted four children out of foster care.  And one of the statements in the training for becoming a foster and adoptive parent is: “ Oftentimes the behavior that makes you so angry, if you knew what the trigger for it was, would instead break your heart.”

Andrea:  That’s so important.

Rosanne Moore:  That is often true, even with adults.  That’s often true.

Andrea:  Yeah, I think that when leaders are frustrated with somebody, and they’re sitting there going: “Oh, my gosh, there’s such a problem situation.  It’s a problem person, and they’re causing me so much frustration.”  You should immediately go to: “I wonder what’s going on?  Like, what’s really going on here?”  If we could ask that question before anything else and stay curious about that, as we’ve been taught, you and I both by Larry Crabb.  Staying curious about that, we can get to a much deeper impact than we ever could by just calling them “bad,” handing out some sort of repercussion.  I mean, maybe there is a, you know, accountability that needs to happen.  But if we can do it in love – I mean, that’s what love does – it asks what’s really going on here.

Rosanne Moore:  And that’s not to say that the person who’s struggling gets a pass.

Andrea:  That’s right.

Rosanne Moore:  It may be that there needs to be – like, you find out what’s going on, and you say, “Okay, what do we need to do to help you do what needs to happen?”  And I think all of us – because when we’re in pain or we’re grieving or whatever – we can hit a point where we’re overwhelmed, and we just want to unplug and not show up in ways that we need to.  So, there is a balance to that.

There were times during the aftermath of my divorce, and when things were really, really difficult, when I would have loved to have been able to just disappear, you know, but I had four kids.  So, I had to get up; I had to work; I had to parent, you know.

But I think that’s one of the things too, in order to build that resilience, when you’re the one hurting, whether as a caregiver or as somebody who’s been through trauma, I thought what Dr. Langberg said about realizing the need to build in beauty – to build in an antidote to the suffering – was really important.

Makoto Fujimori, the very acclaimed and talented artist shared that a few weeks ago, and that’s I think one of the things that I love about his books, that it reminds me that beauty is a necessity.  It’s not like the cherry on top.  It is a necessary part of being human.

Andrea:  I really appreciated that from both of these guests as well.  It really made me think, I know how much more present I feel when I’m able to appreciate beauty.  And maybe I’m appreciating beauty because I’m present, I don’t know.  But the impact that that has on the freedom that I feel, which also reminds me of Effortless, the book that Greg McKeown wrote and my conversation with him recently.

So, I love that this is a kind of a theme right now that maybe everything can be lighter.  Maybe we have a way, an antidote as Diane said, to dealing with all of these hard things, that there is something else that we can do.

So, Rosanne, what would you say that your antidote is?  What do you go to for beauty in your life, because you deal with people who are struggling a lot?

Rosanne Moore:  Right.  I love to read for pleasure.  I mean, I love to read, period.  But at my most stressful times, I try to make sure at least once a month that I have what I call a “nesting night” where I have a lot of sensory stimulation.  So, I have, you know, scented candles, I have a nice long soak in the tub with bath salts.  I have a good book.  I have classical music that is calming or maybe some Andrew Peterson – he’s a favorite artist of mine.

So, I tried to make sure that I’m putting into my senses, beauty, and rest, and rejuvenation.  I also love to sew, and I particularly love to sew patchwork.  And the reason for that is – the patchwork part of it – is I love the idea of taking worn out, thrown away, discarded pieces, and creating something new and beautiful out of them.

And I love to sew because my mom always said: “Sewing is the one thing a woman does that doesn’t have to be done over.  Like, you do the dishes, you have to do them again the next meal.  You make the bed, you have to make it the next day, you know. Once you sew, it’s done, and you got it to look at.”

Andrea:  That’s cool!

Rosanne Moore:  Those are some things for me.

Andrea:  I love that.  So, Rosanne, one of the things that Diane mentioned, you know, speaking of taking care of yourself.  One of the things that Diane mentioned was that whistleblowers have to take care of themselves.  And that’s a tough position to be in, to have to say, “You know, what this is, this is wrong.”  And what I loved about what she said, she said, “You are worth protecting.”  Do you want to expand on that a little bit, because I’m sure you have some really good thoughts?

Rosanne Moore:  I just thought that was such a wonderful statement, because I think for me, my tendency is to think “Well, what’s the right thing to do, and just go do it.”  It makes sense to minimize the damage.  It makes sense that you are worth taking care of, and that’s not selfish.  And I mean, it can be -there would be selfish ways of doing that – but what she was talking about was giving yourself the best opportunity to actually affect the change that you want to see happen so that you’re not just destroyed and silenced.

And I thought that was so wise because I know there would have been a time when I would have looked at women who were in abusive relationships and said what is so often said, “Well, if it’s that bad, just leave,” you know.

Andrea:  Right.

Rosanne Moore:  And one of the things that we do in Lifeline is we help a woman prepare to leave in strength.  Because a lot of times, not only – first of all, you don’t want her to get killed. But you also don’t want her to lose her children, if she has children. Or you don’t want her to end up economically devastated, or have her health ravaged by being such a brutal leaving.

And so, I really resonated with that, because that’s really why I created Lifeline was the things that I wished I had known.  I mean, I did prepare, but there were so many things I didn’t know.  So, I wasn’t able to prepare as thoroughly as, if I had it to do over again, I would be able to do.

And so, I think that’s really valuable to recognize, you are worth it.  If you’re a mom with kids, your children are worth it.  If you’re a company, your co-workers, like some of them may be struggling with it, they may not have the same knowledge you have, and they may come forward.  Others may be waiting to see if somebody else has the courage, and then they’ll join you.  The majority will not; let’s be honest.  The majority will protect their own interests in the status quo.

But for the person who wants to maintain their integrity, who really cares about what is right, and what is true, and people who will be hurt if they remain silent.  Because what she said about, you know, ultimately, if you have that kind of knowledge of injury that’s going on and you remain silent, then you are collaborating with that, whether you realize it or not.  If you can prepare well so that you have the best chance of being heard and of not being destroyed in the process, I think that’s really a wise way to approach things, to slow things down, and take the time to do that.

Andrea:  You know, in Lifeline, you broke it down into some different categories.  And I’m wondering if you would share those six different categories with our audience now, because whether your situation is about leaving an abusive marriage or if it’s about whistleblowing at work, I’m wondering if some of these categories, you know, like, might jog people’s thoughts and creativity on “Well, what do I need to prepare ahead of time?”  So, what are those categories?

Rosanne Moore:  Sure, yes.  There would be some overlap of application.  The first thing we do is look at immediate safety concerns.  That’s not only physical safety, in the case of domestic violence, but also psychological safety.  How do you prepare mentally so that you don’t get manipulated?  So that’s the first thing we look at.  The second thing that we look at is the financial considerations.  How do you prepare financially?

I think the third one is, actually, looking more in depth at the psychological dynamics. What are the psychological dynamics, and how do I not get manipulated?  How do I communicate in a way that doesn’t draw me in to get injured by the other person, to give them opportunity to do more harm?  And then, who are the people -in the case of a domestic abuse situation in the court system – who are the people that I’m going to need on my team?  But that would apply in a business situation, too.  What kind of team do you need to build?  I would get a therapist.  I would build relationships with people outside the organization that can help support you.  An attorney would be good, you know, depending on what the situation is.

So, yeah, so thinking through, who do I need on my team?  Okay, and so then also kind of from knowing who are the people that you need on your team, then you also want to look at “how do I build my case?” Because when you’re whistleblowing, you are actually coming against an image.  You’re not just exposing what’s actually going on, there’s a carefully constructed image that you’re having to topple in the process.

And so, how do I build my case in a way that shows that I am credible and that I actually have evidence that what I’m saying is true and to give the best chance of being heard and protecting my reputation in the process?

And then for those who have children, even if you’re a whistleblower, you want to think through how do I protect my kids from the fallout of this?  I mean, when I think of situations where there are whistleblowers, you know, sometimes threats get made against families and, you know…

Andrea:  Social media can become an issue?

Rosanne Moore:  Yes, exactly.  So, you want to kind of think through those things, how do I protect my kids in the process?

Andrea:  Those are really good.

Rosanne Moore:  That’s good, Andrea.  I hadn’t thought about that.  But you’re right, these categories do apply outside the family court system to any kind of situation where you’re being a whistleblower.

Andrea:  All right.  Well, great.  Thank you so much, Rosanne, for being here, and you know, being able to talk through this with somebody who really knows what they’re talking about.  I have to tell you, it’s just such a blessing for me to have you on our team.  You are really good at not just articulating and editing and all the other wonderful things that you help me with.  But also, your expertise in this area of healthy and unhealthy influence is so incredibly valuable to both me and to our clients and to this audience.  And so, I just wanted to say thank you.

Rosanne Moore:  Well, I appreciate being here.  And, you know, I always love working with you.  I appreciate the fact that you walk what you talk about.

Andrea:  Rosanne, let’s tell them, how can they find Lifeline if somebody is in a situation or they know somebody else who’s in a situation, what is that situation exactly?  Why would somebody want to come and get those free resources or just go ahead and purchase Lifeline?

Rosanne Moore:  Right.  So, Lifeline would help whether you’re evaluating your relationship and trying to figure out what to do with it in an intimate relationship, or whether you’re actually in the process of a divorce and you’re trying to figure out how to solidify and strengthen your position, Lifeline was created for navigating the family court system in the case of abuse or coercive control.

And so, it is a six-module course, and there are worksheets that help you apply to your specific circumstance, because we’re all about building your voice, releasing your gifts.  You’re the expert on your situation, but it can be overwhelming.  So, the attempt is to take some of the overwhelm away, and make it more manageable, and more organized, so you can think it through in pieces.  And yeah, the course will help you.  It’s $25 for a year subscription, one-time fee year subscription.  There are some free resources that you can sign up and evaluate first if you want.  But yeah, you can go to voiceofinfluence.net/Lifeline, or you can look in the show notes of this episode.

Andrea:  All right.  Thank you so much!  And, everybody out there listening and watching, we’re just so grateful for you!  We really do believe in you.  We believe in you.  We believe in what you have to contribute.  We believe in your being, and so we just wanted to let you know that we really believe that your voice matters.  Bye for now.

 

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